How much is too much?

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Guaranteed 10 runs at an event, with a limited entry of 60 drivers, how much would you pay to run?

$40
1
10%
$45
1
10%
$50
7
70%
$55
0
No votes
$60
1
10%
 
Total votes: 10

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How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:59 pm

Ok so before we even go there, just some ideas floating around about how the club can better itself financially and keep things fund for everyone.

So here is the question: If you were guaranteed 10 runs at an event, with a limited entry of 60 drivers, how much would you pay to run?

I'm not in any way saying this is the direction that things are headed, just wanting everyone's opinion. I've included a poll in $5 increments.

Thanks!
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by drjeffapp » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:29 pm

The amount I voted for reflects not the awesomeness of the 10 runs, but the fact that I have a family of 4 to pay for when we race.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Gen52SS » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:07 pm

Based on what the club needs to break somewhat even anything under $50 would be a loss NO?
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:29 pm

Gen52SS wrote:Based on what the club needs to break somewhat even anything under $50 would be a loss NO?
Yes and no. If we were to limit to 60 entries and guarantee 10 runs but stay at a $40 entry that would be a loss for sure.

If we stay at $40 and do the usual 6 runs but have 70 drivers, then we would be doing OK. but only ten more people show up and 4 less runs a piece.

One of the changes we made this year was involving fun runs. We changed from $1 per run to $3 per run or 2 for $5.

Limiting at 60 drivers and doing 10 runs for $50 is pretty much the same as doing 6 competitive runs and 4 fun runs as far as money goes.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Gen52SS » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:37 pm

How many out of the 60 would elect to do the 6 competitive runs and call it a day? I would use it to T&T and support the club but will everyone?
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:45 pm

Actually I was thinking all 10 would be competitive runs and was just using the fun runs as an example showing the cost would be about the same.

I think 10 competition runs would be a blast! To me it gives more of a chance to improve and learn.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Slowehand » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:13 pm

$50 for 10...Giddy-up!!

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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Eunos735 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:26 am

1) It totally depends on the course and the site. I have only ran one event at the jet port and was not impressed with the surface. If the surface comes around I would be more willing to pay a larger sum.

2) Getting 10 runs in a day doesn't interest me as much as 5 or 6 runs on a fun, well flowing course on a high grip surface.

3) The price of the "fun runs" is a non-issue. I have been coming to events with this club for 3 years and I can only remember a couple times when fun runs were even offered.

4) You need to be careful setting your pricing model based off a set number of entrants. There are going to be events where not many people show up (Rain, cold, conflicts with other regions) and you need to factor in the economics of the variable utility function. Some folks will come if you charged $20 or $100 but there is a point where the higher cost will drive entrants away. i.e. if the average attendance was 50 with a price of $30 each you can't increase the cost to $60 and still expect to average 50.

just my 2 cents.

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Re: How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:32 am

Eunos735 wrote:1) It totally depends on the course and the site. I have only ran one event at the jet port and was not impressed with the surface. If the surface comes around I would be more willing to pay a larger sum.

2) Getting 10 runs in a day doesn't interest me as much as 5 or 6 runs on a fun, well flowing course on a high grip surface.

3) The price of the "fun runs" is a non-issue. I have been coming to events with this club for 3 years and I can only remember a couple times when fun runs were even offered.

4) You need to be careful setting your pricing model based off a set number of entrants. There are going to be events where not many people show up (Rain, cold, conflicts with other regions) and you need to factor in the economics of the variable utility function. Some folks will come if you charged $20 or $100 but there is a point where the higher cost will drive entrants away. i.e. if the average attendance was 50 with a price of $30 each you can't increase the cost to $60 and still expect to average 50.

just my 2 cents.
All valid points.

The surface does seem to be improving fairly quick as the rough edges get knocked off.

The Solo staff seems to all be in agreement that we need to build the club back up and that Fun Runs would need to be a more frequent occurrence this year. I'll take the blame on the lack of fun runs last year as it was my call and usually by the end of the competition runs I was ready to get to the house.

We are really just exploring options to in and effort to get the club running in the black this year.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by CobaltSSlow » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:23 pm

Personally I think 6 runs is sufficient. 1/2 the wear on the car and tires (bungee cords?). Not to mention that 80 drivers x 6 runs = 480 runs vs. 60 drivers x 10 runs = 600. That could be a long day.

What about letting drivers 'buy back in' while doing fun runs? IE: you can buy one more competitive run for $5 or 3 for $10 - but only the first run counts as competitive? That would keep more people around, up the excitement and bring in more cash for the club. If this is against SCCA rules or something then obviously it would be a no-go - but it seems like an interesting compromise.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Will94SC » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:38 pm

CobaltSSlow wrote:Personally I think 6 runs is sufficient. 1/2 the wear on the car and tires (bungee cords?). Not to mention that 80 drivers x 6 runs = 480 runs vs. 60 drivers x 10 runs = 600. That could be a long day.

What about letting drivers 'buy back in' while doing fun runs? IE: you can buy one more competitive run for $5 or 3 for $10 - but only the first run counts as competitive? That would keep more people around, up the excitement and bring in more cash for the club. If this is against SCCA rules or something then obviously it would be a no-go - but it seems like an interesting compromise.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of buybacks and/or fun runs counting towards points. I've seen how it's used in drag racing, but that's not a system I'd want to replicate. Just my opinion.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Choray911 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:44 pm

This is racing, not Texas hold'em... no buy backs.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Gen52SS » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:06 pm

I also like the 6 runs like it was set up at the last few events.... 3 runs morning group and 3 runs afternoon group.... this way each group has more equal weather related shot at the course leaving a group on the grid for lunch break who then start off the afternoon session. What about something like a SHOOTOUT after the 6 point runs are over. All who want to stay for the shootout pay ?$$$? for 3 runs, 2 runs, 1 run......whatever it's Based on PAX and how many entries... award?, trophy?, prize? Big Mac and fries? :) given to top 2,3,5 etc. just another idea.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by CobaltSSlow » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:16 pm

If you limit it to 1 then I don't think its unreasonable. I just really think 10 runs is way too many. I'd do 6 and park regardless if they were offered or not. Now if I DNF'd pushing it on the 6th run but thought I had that extra 10th in me... Then I might buy back in for one run.

There are a ton of issues with this and I'm sure it would lead to a bunch of whining, but one of the main issues with doing fun runs is that everyone leaves and a very small group that waited is left to clean everything up at the end. I thought maybe this would keep more people interested and involved during fun runs. (read: more help packing up).

I can tell you that by the end of 6 runs I'm usually ready for beer and tacos. More than 30 minutes between that last run and beer/tacos makes me grumpy.

Edit: Thats not to say I won't help clean up at the end and maybe take some fun runs myself. I'll just be malnourished and dehydrated...
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Will94SC » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:40 pm

CobaltSSlow wrote:If you limit it to 1 then I don't think its unreasonable. I just really think 10 runs is way too many. I'd do 6 and park regardless if they were offered or not. Now if I DNF'd pushing it on the 6th run but thought I had that extra 10th in me... Then I might buy back in for one run.

There are a ton of issues with this and I'm sure it would lead to a bunch of whining, but one of the main issues with doing fun runs is that everyone leaves and a very small group that waited is left to clean everything up at the end. I thought maybe this would keep more people interested and involved during fun runs. (read: more help packing up).
I'm all for fun runs, but they should be just that--for fun.

I also think people who leave immediately after competition runs without helping clean up are just as likely to leave after fun runs without helping clean up.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:44 pm

CobaltSSlow wrote: What about letting drivers 'buy back in' while doing fun runs? IE: you can buy one more competitive run for $5 or 3 for $10 - but only the first run counts as competitive? That would keep more people around, up the excitement and bring in more cash for the club. If this is against SCCA rules or something then obviously it would be a no-go - but it seems like an interesting compromise.
I would quit as Solo Chair, give up my board position as webmaster, and consider joining a different region if we did this.

Imagine, the last fun run of the day is a "Buy Back" and that person goes from 3rd to first in class. I'm not going to be the one listening to that argument.

In fact, if I were the person leading the class and that happened to me, I'd likely not come back.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by randychase » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:07 pm

I just enjoy driving fast so whatever we do, I am okay with it. Having said that, the sport for some of us, is what we do at National events. And that means being the fastest you can be in 3 runs. For me, that is about how quickly I can pick up the best way through the course and get it done in those 3 runs. it is different, but not hugely so, when we do 4 runs. But the more runs we allow as counting for points, the less it feels like SCCA autocross to me. I do like having more runs... but to me, those should be runs without points.

I also think if we could enable a more easier way for people to ride along, to jump into other cars, it would help in driver development, and possibly new driver recruitment.


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Re: How much is too much?

Post by CobaltSSlow » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:08 pm

Which is why I said only the first 'buy in' run would count. Any 'buy in' runs would be done immediately following the competition. If you think you have a chance to win - buy another run. Likely whoever you are fighting for position with will do the same. This would let those who were satisfied with their 6 runs be done. Those who are interested will stay and watch. The club makes a few more bucks AND we differentiate ourselves a bit from everyone else.

What is it they say about doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome?
shaggybob wrote: I would quit as Solo Chair, give up my board position as webmaster, and consider joining a different region if we did this.
Its certainly a bit radical, but I was not expecting that sort of response. I'll think twice before making any suggestions in the future. My apologies.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Will94SC » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:36 pm

CobaltSSlow wrote:
shaggybob wrote: I would quit as Solo Chair, give up my board position as webmaster, and consider joining a different region if we did this.
Its certainly a bit radical, but I was not expecting that sort of response. I'll think twice before making any suggestions in the future. My apologies.
Don't take Bob's response as a rebuke, RJ. We want new suggestions, but not everyone will always agree with them.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by CobaltSSlow » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:03 pm

Another thing to consider in a scenario where you have guaranteed 60 drivers 10 runs is stoppage for airport business. A 2 hour break for a jet to fuel and take off would make that difficult if not impossible to complete all the runs in our typical timeframe. We can't assume that this jet is always going to leave at lunchtime to make it convenient for us. It may not depart or arrive during an event, but the possibility is there (and its happened before). I think guaranteeing people more runs at a site where our schedule can at times be completely out of our control could lead to disappointment.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by drjeffapp » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:14 pm

Bearing that in mind, perhaps we could say something like:

We will run 6. Then fun runs until, say, 4:30 or some set agreed upon scheduled, consistent time. So folks would know that was our finishing time, regardless of what happens. Then we clean up and trophies. Then beer and tacos. This way there was no unknown time projections and more folks may stay around to help. There might could even be a small unconscious incentive to keep it flowing during the day, with shorter turn over times.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:20 pm

Will94SC wrote:
CobaltSSlow wrote:
shaggybob wrote: I would quit as Solo Chair, give up my board position as webmaster, and consider joining a different region if we did this.
Its certainly a bit radical, but I was not expecting that sort of response. I'll think twice before making any suggestions in the future. My apologies.
Don't take Bob's response as a rebuke, RJ. We want new suggestions, but not everyone will always agree with them.
Certainly wasn't meant to come off that way, I was actually chuckling when I typed that out. It's very difficult to determine tone in written responses unless obvious words are used.

Any ideas about how we could get the club out of the red and in to the black are welcomed.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Choray911 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:38 pm

Yeah Bob, you sounded a little dickish.

What ever happened to just being the fun region.

We have had a lot of conjecture over the past few months & havent even had an event. We post poned a T&T because of weather. I think we need to sit down breath & chill.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:45 pm

CobaltSSlow wrote:Another thing to consider in a scenario where you have guaranteed 60 drivers 10 runs is stoppage for airport business. A 2 hour break for a jet to fuel and take off would make that difficult if not impossible to complete all the runs in our typical timeframe. We can't assume that this jet is always going to leave at lunchtime to make it convenient for us. It may not depart or arrive during an event, but the possibility is there (and its happened before). I think guaranteeing people more runs at a site where our schedule can at times be completely out of our control could lead to disappointment.
This is something that hadn't been thought of, or at I least I don't think it had, but it really needs to be included with the consideration of this format. Also it's part of the reason I put it out on the forum so others can help us work through potential issues.

Essentially this whole thread came from a conversation with Berry where he was explaining the idea and we were just trying to feel it out.

The unknowns with air traffic are one of the short comings of the jet port, but something we have to deal with as long as we are running there. Of course wherever we run, we aren't going to be able to interfere with their normal business.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:46 pm

Choray911 wrote:Yeah Bob, you sounded a little dickish.

What ever happened to just being the fun region.

We have had a lot of conjecture over the past few months & havent even had an event. We post poned a T&T because of weather. I think we need to sit down breath & chill.
What was missing from my comment is an emoticon that indicates it should be read with a British accent and a hint of sarcasm. I looked but I couldn't find one
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by drjeffapp » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:53 pm

Like this?
Really.jpg
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Choray911 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:08 pm

drjeffapp wrote:Like this?
Really.jpg
Is that you with your creamsicle
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:30 pm

The other alternative here that doesn't involve raising prices is building the club.

Across the 10 events that were held in 2014, we average 56 drivers per event. In 2013 that was only 41 people per event. 15 per event average is a terrific increase, but if I remove the Jet Port events that average drops to 52. Clearly the Jet Port has helped our attendance, but we also managed to grow last year before the Jet Port came in to play.

What we need, at the current entry fee, just to survive is an average of 65 drivers. More than 65 would really be ideal so the club can actually have funds to buy equipment when needed. Hopefully our Windows XP laptop will get us through another year or 2.

If we, as a club, can manage to to increase our membership and participation then we shouldn't have a problem getting an average participation of 70+ drivers and then the club could actually get back on it's feet again.

This has already been talked about within the Board of Directors but is going to need participation from club members, at multiple car events throughout the year. We would need to hit the cruise-ins, swap meets, car shows, and any other kind of event imaginable that involves car people. It's going to feel like work for the Board and Solo staff if we don't get help from the general membership, which we really want to get that help from everyone.

I'm almost thread-jacking myself with all this but I feel like all that is sort of relevant.

Now the counter point. If we limit to 60 and raise to $50 then we solve an issue with paddock. If we have 71 drivers, remember the first event there in August? Then paddock becomes a real issue. So we gain participants that allows us to keep entry fees down, so we can lose space to run the event, so we have shorter courses, so we have less runs.

Throw in another problem we are facing. Our cut0off to cancel or postpone(if possible) is noon on Wednesday before the event. We also have a lot of people who don't register before the last minute which prevents us from getting an accurate idea of how many people plan to attend. Yes I know scheduling issues pop up and other things that occasionally cause people not to know until late in the week, but we also have a lot of people who register for every single event as soon as it opens and then don't show. I know things happen and those things can't always be helped, no big deal, but it also puts us in a position where we have to look at the number registered, then automatically assume we will be missing 8 of those and hope for the best.

Limiting to 60 will cause people to jump on registration sooner which will also allow is to have a better picture of whether or not we can afford the event.

I know this is a long post but it's more of the information we need to consider.
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by shaggybob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:30 pm

drjeffapp wrote:Like this?
Really.jpg
I said British, not Diva.....
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Re: How much is too much?

Post by Will94SC » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:37 pm

randychase wrote:I just enjoy driving fast so whatever we do, I am okay with it. Having said that, the sport for some of us, is what we do at National events. And that means being the fastest you can be in 3 runs. For me, that is about how quickly I can pick up the best way through the course and get it done in those 3 runs. it is different, but not hugely so, when we do 4 runs. But the more runs we allow as counting for points, the less it feels like SCCA autocross to me. I do like having more runs... but to me, those should be runs without points.


My 2 cents.
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